I am going to Asheville, NC. Does anyone know the status of the
Biltmore Estate boxes (5)?

Woody's Mama

-----Original Message-----
From: Rayvenhaus [mailto:rayvenhaus@myndworx.com]
Sent: Monday, May 17, 2004 11:14 PM
To: LbNA [Letterbox North America]
Subject: [LbNA] And then there were none.......


Just trying to come up with new and innovative subjects
lines..... (grin)

I've gotten the LbRS (Letterbox Rating System) back on line and
operational under the same URL as recently posted:

Coder: http://www.lbworld.org/modules/LCAS/diff_gen.php

Decoder: http://www.lbworld.org/modules/LCAS/diff_decoder.php

Feel free to use it to your hearts content!


------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------
Steve of Team Rayvenhaus
World of Letterboxing Community - Carpe Arcanum Arca!
"A world of difference awaits.........."
http://www.lbworld.org

------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------
If builders built buildings the way programmers wrote programs,
then the first woodpecker that came along would destroy
civilization.

------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------




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ADVERTISEMENT
click here
oups/S=1705065786:HM/EXP=1084936499/A=2128215/R=0/SIG=10se96mf6/*http://
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s/S=:HM/A=2128215/rand=472444180>


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of Service .




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Oh, I thought you were referring to the main list! (LOL) With the new "newbie" list thoughtfully created by Mark, and so many other people hurt or rebuffed by some of the the folks on this list (albiet a very small few) and turning to thier regional lists instead, I thought the main list had fianlyl dwindled down to one crotchety old timer. Which seems to be the way things are heading. It reminds me of a Star Trek episode where a society became so elitist and advanced and were so disdainful of anything not "high minded" they forgot or lost the basic ability to reproduce. As a result, they were becoming extinct. As the elders died off there were no new ones to replace them. And then there were none....

But this isn't sci-fi, this is reality. Which is far more frightening!

Rayvenhaus wrote:
Just trying to come up with new and innovative subjects lines..... (grin)

I've gotten the LbRS (Letterbox Rating System) back on line and operational under the same URL as recently posted:

Coder: http://www.lbworld.org/modules/LCAS/diff_gen.php

Decoder: http://www.lbworld.org/modules/LCAS/diff_decoder.php

Feel free to use it to your hearts content!

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Steve of Team Rayvenhaus
World of Letterboxing Community - Carpe Arcanum Arca!
"A world of difference awaits.........."
http://www.lbworld.org
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If builders built buildings the way programmers wrote programs, then the first woodpecker that came along would destroy
civilization.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------



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---------------------------------
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---------------------------------
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SBC Yahoo! - Internet access at a great low price.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I emailed the placer a couple of weeks ago and she said *to the best of her
knowledge* they were all there.

For those new to using the clue pages, there is a feature named "contact the
placer" that allows you to email the placer directly with questions,
comments, reports....I find it very useful when boxing out of state, or for
reporting the status of a box, or when I need more hints about a certain
box, lol.



Mama Stork
aka Pam in Cinci



> -----Original Message-----
> From: Linda Reedy [mailto:lreedy@gracebc.org]
> Sent: Tuesday, May 18, 2004 7:15 AM
> To: letterbox-usa@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: RE: [LbNA] And then there were none.......
>
>
> I am going to Asheville, NC. Does anyone know the status of the
> Biltmore Estate boxes (5)?
>
> Woody's Mama
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Rayvenhaus [mailto:rayvenhaus@myndworx.com]
> Sent: Monday, May 17, 2004 11:14 PM
> To: LbNA [Letterbox North America]
> Subject: [LbNA] And then there were none.......
>
>
> Just trying to come up with new and innovative subjects
> lines..... (grin)
>
> I've gotten the LbRS (Letterbox Rating System) back on line and
> operational under the same URL as recently posted:
>
> Coder: http://www.lbworld.org/modules/LCAS/diff_gen.php
>
> Decoder: http://www.lbworld.org/modules/LCAS/diff_decoder.php
>
> Feel free to use it to your hearts content!
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------
> ----------
> ------------------
> Steve of Team Rayvenhaus
> World of Letterboxing Community - Carpe Arcanum Arca!
> "A world of difference awaits.........."
> http://www.lbworld.org
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------
> ----------
> ------------------
> If builders built buildings the way programmers wrote programs,
> then the first woodpecker that came along would destroy
> civilization.
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------
> ----------
> ------------------
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
> ADVERTISEMENT
> click here
> > 01176/D=gr
> oups/S=1705065786:HM/EXP=1084936499/A=2128215/R=0/SIG=10se96mf
> 6/*http://
> companion.yahoo.com>
>
> 76/D=group
s/S=:HM/A=2128215/rand=472444180>


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* To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/letterbox-usa/

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of Service .




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





Yahoo! Groups Links






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Is that "Excellent" said in the voice of J. Montgomery Burns of the Simpsons, while making a tent of his fingers?

"Brian, Ryan & Lori" wrote:>I thought the main list had finally dwindled down to one crotchety
>old timer.

Excellent! My scheme is going exactly as planned.

Brian
TeamGreenDragon


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---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
SBC Yahoo! - Internet access at a great low price.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Very well put! It seems the urge to "posess" the game (by
exclusionary tactics like the nomination process for "veterans"
lists, secret handshakes, etc.) is a step towards killing the game
altogether. The act of placing a letterbox for others to find is in
essence an act of sharing. Whether it means the sharing of a great
stamp, or an intriguing quest, or a picturesque local, a box placed
is an act of goodwill towards others. Hoarding information, clues,
or insight gained by hard-earned experience goes against the very
nature of letterboxing, the way I see it.


Melinda

--- In letterbox-usa@yahoogroups.com, Hikers_n_ Hounds
wrote:
> Oh, I thought you were referring to the main list! (LOL) With the
new "newbie" list thoughtfully created by Mark, and so many other
people hurt or rebuffed by some of the the folks on this list
(albiet a very small few) and turning to thier regional lists
instead, I thought the main list had fianlyl dwindled down to one
crotchety old timer. Which seems to be the way things are heading.
It reminds me of a Star Trek episode where a society became so
elitist and advanced and were so disdainful of anything not "high
minded" they forgot or lost the basic ability to reproduce. As a
result, they were becoming extinct. As the elders died off there
were no new ones to replace them. And then there were none....
>
> But this isn't sci-fi, this is reality. Which is far more
frightening!
>
> Rayvenhaus wrote:
> Just trying to come up with new and innovative subjects lines.....
(grin)
>
> I've gotten the LbRS (Letterbox Rating System) back on line and
operational under the same URL as recently posted:
>
> Coder: http://www.lbworld.org/modules/LCAS/diff_gen.php
>
> Decoder: http://www.lbworld.org/modules/LCAS/diff_decoder.php
>
> Feel free to use it to your hearts content!
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------
-----------------------
> Steve of Team Rayvenhaus
> World of Letterboxing Community - Carpe Arcanum Arca!
> "A world of difference awaits.........."
> http://www.lbworld.org
> -------------------------------------------------------------------
-----------------------
> If builders built buildings the way programmers wrote programs,
then the first woodpecker that came along would destroy
> civilization.
> -------------------------------------------------------------------
-----------------------
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
> To visit your group on the web, go to:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/letterbox-usa/
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> letterbox-usa-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
Service.
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Do you Yahoo!?
> SBC Yahoo! - Internet access at a great low price.
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

> Very well put! It seems the urge to "posess" the game (by
> exclusionary tactics like the nomination process for "veterans"
> lists, secret handshakes, etc.) is a step towards killing the game
> altogether.

Actually, I think this would make the game all the more fun. The element of mystery
would be there. There will always be the boxes for all to find and then there would be
the hidden clues for those who delve deep.

>The act of placing a letterbox for others to find is in
> essence an act of sharing. Whether it means the sharing of a great
> stamp, or an intriguing quest, or a picturesque local, a box placed
> is an act of goodwill towards others.

It is defintely a wonderful an act of sharing. However there is a school of thinking in this
group that a letterbox in the wild is no longer the property of the creator. This attitude is
the thing that has put a monkey wrench into the works. Some letterboxers feel that the
act of sharing is just that and not one of absolute surrender.

>Hoarding information, clues,
> or insight gained by hard-earned experience goes against the very
> nature of letterboxing, the way I see it.

Actually, the way it's been done historically in Dartmoor is MUCH more exclusionary. You
can't even get the clue book until you've found a hundred boxes! Finding those is the
membership card to the club and can take considerable stealth. This cloak and dagger
aspect of boxing is one of the things that attracted me to the hobby in the first place.

The sneakier the better, as far as I'm concerned. Keeps that old gray matter cookin'
Funhog

All I can say, Alafair, is Amen to that!

I think one of the challenges we face on this big list is the
differences between our involvement. For some, boxing is a Sunday
pastime - for others, it's almost a way of life. While we all look at
this "thing" a little differently than the next letterboxer, the
primary idea to keep in mind is that we should respect all
positions, all views, everyone.

Have fun and just get out there & box!!!

Mark Pepe
http://markandsuepepe.blogspot.com/



--- In letterbox-usa@yahoogroups.com, "Alafair" wrote:
> First of all, letterboxing is interpretive by its nature. Some call
> it a game. Others a quest. Still others, a treasure hunt. There are
> other interpretations as well. Implied in most interpretations that
I
> know of is the mystery of solving the clues that lead to the
> letterbox.
>
> For some who place and some who find, the mystery may extend to
> finding the clues themselves. If you've read the LbNA FAQ's, you
may
> have seen the following: "most clues are in the clue database
at
the
> Letterboxing North America (LbNA) web site, www.letterboxing.org.
> Beyond that, getting clues themselves can be part of the game.
> Sometimes clues are learned of only via word of mouth." I
suppose
> this can be interpreted as being exclusionary or elitist by those
who
> express frustration over not having *all* clues available with the
> click of a mouse on a public website. Nevertheless, it is a
> letterboxing fact of life that some letterboxers and their clues
are
> secretive and some are not. This is really all about a continuum of
> preferences with many subsets in between. There is room for all
> comers in this most interesting activity, though the LbNA list
would
> seem to belie this of late.
>
> If a person has a negative emotional reaction to the secretive
nature
> of some letterboxers and their clues, then perhaps putting oneself
in
> the shoes of the box owner is in order. There may be valid
reasoning
> behind non-publication of a letterbox's clues. I will use myself as
> an example. I have boxes that are unpublished because they are in
an
> environmentally sensitive area that a great deal of "traffic" might
> impact. The clues are available via snail mail upon request. That
is
> my choice, right or wrong. Incidentally, I have never refused
anyone
> who has asked for the clues. Would you then accuse me
of "hoarding,"
> not sharing or being exclusionary or elitist? Please remember,
these
> letterboxes are mine and, like every other person out there who
> places letterboxes, I reserve the right to distribute the clues in
> any way I see fit. Per LbNA's FAQ's, as far as I know, I am not
doing
> anything that lies outside of the spirit of the game.
>
> Some letterboxes truly are works of art, and by their very nature,
I
> can well understand why the owner might want to know who's looking
> for and finding them. You may disagree and think this is unfair and
> feel excluded, but you can't disrespect the placer's choice to do
> what he or she wants with their own hard work.
>
> In terms of other talk-lists that you allude to, due to the
> burgeoning popularity of letterboxing, regional lists make a great
> deal of sense and are more convenient for many. There may very well
> come a point in time that the LbNA list will have outlived its
> usefulness. That remains to be seen. Other lists that may be
created
> according to a group of like-minded letterboxers with similar
> interests are legitimate as well and their owners can set them up
any
> way they choose and allow or disallow membership to anyone based
on
> criteria appropriate to that group.
>
> It seems that when we layer our insatiable need for "instant
> gratification" on top of the internet, we are poised to want
> everything *now* and express some angst about that which is not
> readily available in this point and click world. The counterpoint
is
> a school of thought that supposes that letterboxing, like other
> things we do in life, takes time to learn. There is a tremendous
> amount of information out there in various places that will help
any
> newcomer who is interested in appreciating all of the artistic and
> technical nuances, and there are many. All it takes is patience and
> digging. You may argue that you do not have time for research. Then
> maybe this is not the activity for you at this point in your life.
>
> The bottom line, and forgive me for saying this again, no list or
sub-
> list, no forum and no database is letterboxing. Having clues in
hand,
> no matter how you come by them, and stepping away from the rhetoric
> and into the great outdoors is letterboxing.
>
> Alafair

Alafair, I couldn't agree more with the things you and Funhog have
said! Thank you.

SpringChick

--- In letterbox-usa@yahoogroups.com, "Alafair" wrote:
> First of all, letterboxing is interpretive by its nature. Some call
> it a game. Others a quest. Still others, a treasure hunt. There are
> other interpretations as well. Implied in most interpretations that
I
> know of is the mystery of solving the clues that lead to the
> letterbox.
>
> For some who place and some who find, the mystery may extend to
> finding the clues themselves. If you've read the LbNA FAQ's, you
may
> have seen the following: "most clues are in the clue database at
the
> Letterboxing North America (LbNA) web site, www.letterboxing.org.
> Beyond that, getting clues themselves can be part of the game.
> Sometimes clues are learned of only via word of mouth." I suppose
> this can be interpreted as being exclusionary or elitist by those
who
> express frustration over not having *all* clues available with the
> click of a mouse on a public website. Nevertheless, it is a
> letterboxing fact of life that some letterboxers and their clues
are
> secretive and some are not. This is really all about a continuum of
> preferences with many subsets in between. There is room for all
> comers in this most interesting activity, though the LbNA list
would
> seem to belie this of late.
>
> If a person has a negative emotional reaction to the secretive
nature
> of some letterboxers and their clues, then perhaps putting oneself
in
> the shoes of the box owner is in order. There may be valid
reasoning
> behind non-publication of a letterbox's clues. I will use myself as
> an example. I have boxes that are unpublished because they are in
an
> environmentally sensitive area that a great deal of "traffic" might
> impact. The clues are available via snail mail upon request. That
is
> my choice, right or wrong. Incidentally, I have never refused
anyone
> who has asked for the clues. Would you then accuse me
of "hoarding,"
> not sharing or being exclusionary or elitist? Please remember,
these
> letterboxes are mine and, like every other person out there who
> places letterboxes, I reserve the right to distribute the clues in
> any way I see fit. Per LbNA's FAQ's, as far as I know, I am not
doing
> anything that lies outside of the spirit of the game.
>
> Some letterboxes truly are works of art, and by their very nature,
I
> can well understand why the owner might want to know who's looking
> for and finding them. You may disagree and think this is unfair and
> feel excluded, but you can't disrespect the placer's choice to do
> what he or she wants with their own hard work.
>
> In terms of other talk-lists that you allude to, due to the
> burgeoning popularity of letterboxing, regional lists make a great
> deal of sense and are more convenient for many. There may very well
> come a point in time that the LbNA list will have outlived its
> usefulness. That remains to be seen. Other lists that may be
created
> according to a group of like-minded letterboxers with similar
> interests are legitimate as well and their owners can set them up
any
> way they choose and allow or disallow membership to anyone based
on
> criteria appropriate to that group.
>
> It seems that when we layer our insatiable need for "instant
> gratification" on top of the internet, we are poised to want
> everything *now* and express some angst about that which is not
> readily available in this point and click world. The counterpoint
is
> a school of thought that supposes that letterboxing, like other
> things we do in life, takes time to learn. There is a tremendous
> amount of information out there in various places that will help
any
> newcomer who is interested in appreciating all of the artistic and
> technical nuances, and there are many. All it takes is patience and
> digging. You may argue that you do not have time for research. Then
> maybe this is not the activity for you at this point in your life.
>
> The bottom line, and forgive me for saying this again, no list or
sub-
> list, no forum and no database is letterboxing. Having clues in
hand,
> no matter how you come by them, and stepping away from the rhetoric
> and into the great outdoors is letterboxing.
>
> Alafair

I agree, very well put, Funhog. And I agree with you.... to an
extent. The element of mystery is another part of the game.
Difficult clues and mystery boxes are very rewarding puzzles when
unravelled. Some clues read like entrance exams into a secret
world, and that's awesome. It seems like we may share the view that
varying levels of difficulty in clues adds a nice spice to the game.

Now, I can't pretend to know what it is about Dartmoor that makes
its letterboxing more "cloak and dagger" than ours. I've never been
to Dartmoor. Maybe there's something unique in its culture that
fostered this more exclusionary approach to letterboxing, I don't
know.

I don't think anyone can disagree with me when I say US boxing is
very different from Dartmoor boxing. They have an arduous process
by which clues are acquired: 100 boxes found before clues are
accessed. (I've never quite understood how those first 100 are
found without the clues, but I digress.) We have clues posted on
the world wide web for anyone with a modem to access. Their sport
is practically historic, we have internet talk lists and
gatherings. When you think about it, it's not really fair to either
to hold one up to the traditions or advances of the other. They are
unique unto themselves.

What is it about US boxing that makes it the way it is? I'm going
to sidestep the flag waving to answer that question. Fact is, I'm
not sure why our boxing is the way it is anymore than I can explain
the character of Dartmoor boxes. I do know one thing: the game is
what you make it. Easy clues, hard clues, whatever. It's a
wonderful thing as long as we don't get too caught up in ego and
status.

I'd like to think that veterans have a lot more to offer the Lb
community than raspberries blown into the faces of those who are
just learning the ropes. There are a lot of people who are sitting
on a wealth of information and insight. They could be role models
to the rest of them if they choose to be.

Thanks, Funhog, for sharing your insight.

Melinda
--- In letterbox-usa@yahoogroups.com, "funhog1" wrote:
>
> > Very well put! It seems the urge to "posess" the game (by
> > exclusionary tactics like the nomination process for "veterans"
> > lists, secret handshakes, etc.) is a step towards killing the
game
> > altogether.
>
> Actually, I think this would make the game all the more fun. The
element of mystery
> would be there. There will always be the boxes for all to find and
then there would be
> the hidden clues for those who delve deep.
>
> >The act of placing a letterbox for others to find is in
> > essence an act of sharing. Whether it means the sharing of a
great
> > stamp, or an intriguing quest, or a picturesque local, a box
placed
> > is an act of goodwill towards others.
>
> It is defintely a wonderful an act of sharing. However there is a
school of thinking in this
> group that a letterbox in the wild is no longer the property of
the creator. This attitude is
> the thing that has put a monkey wrench into the works. Some
letterboxers feel that the
> act of sharing is just that and not one of absolute surrender.
>
> >Hoarding information, clues,
> > or insight gained by hard-earned experience goes against the
very
> > nature of letterboxing, the way I see it.
>
> Actually, the way it's been done historically in Dartmoor is MUCH
more exclusionary. You
> can't even get the clue book until you've found a hundred boxes!
Finding those is the
> membership card to the club and can take considerable stealth.
This cloak and dagger
> aspect of boxing is one of the things that attracted me to the
hobby in the first place.
>
> The sneakier the better, as far as I'm concerned. Keeps that old
gray matter cookin'
> Funhog

I'm enjoying this thread very much-- everyone has their own
perspective, and letterboxing IS a paradox to an extent.

But...

Alafair said: (forgive me for the small clip out of context)

>
> If a person has a negative emotional reaction to the secretive
nature
> of some letterboxers and their clues, then perhaps putting oneself
in
> the shoes of the box owner is in order. >>


For me, personally, I have a negative emotional reaction NOT to the
secretive nature, but the way in which it's presented. Let's look at
the Lemony Snicket posts and subsequent disagreement.

I'm a literary person by nature and I simply ADORE the whole idea of
the LS boxes. Someday I hope to get at least the Florida one! BUT,
I joined the list after the initial post. I tried to go back through
the archives but there are FORTY THOUSAND posts.


Now, let's just suppose I was a complete newbie, and signed up
excited about learning this new hobby. Perhaps I wouldn't have had
any problem at ALLLL seeing that it was 'secret and mysterious'....or
even figuring it out and enjoying the hunt as I was supposed
to....once I knew that there WERE such a thing as 'secretive clues'!
In order to find the game and enjoy it, you first have to know the
game exists!


I really enjoy the mystery of the game as much as everyone else
here. I really really do. BUT, I do have a problem with being SO
secretive that we can't, as a group, politely tell the newcomers that
there IS a mystery that they can seek. I don't have a negative
emotional response to the fact that it's part of the game-- only the
way it seems to scare off half the people that ask for help. How
many of those people might be the NEXT great carver? Or might miss
out on the complete WONDERFULNESS of your incredible box and stamp
simply because noone took a second to answer them politely?

I am absolutely NOT using the Lemony posts as anything other than an
example simply because it's fresh in everyone's minds. I mean no
disrespect to their creator at all.

Now that I've either insulted you or won your support (this sort of
issue seems to have only two sides), I'll stop down off that box.

But please, for GOODNESS SAKES people, remember that even YOU once
upon a time didn't know there was such a thing as letterboxing....or
email lists.....or even the internet.....

Every single one of you started somewhere with a spark of interest.
In my humble opinion you *owe it* to your hobby to give other people
at least the opportunity to choose based on just a bit of
information, politely dispensed. You really can sincerely say "I'm
not going to tell you because finding the information is part of the
game." I do it with my students every single day in my classroom.
They come away learning as much about themselves as the information
they were seeking.

GreyCrazy
(not quite a newbie when I joined but just experienced enough to
speak my mind)

In a message dated 5/18/2004 1:35:13 PM Eastern Standard Time,
moonsunmagik@yahoo.com writes:
I'd like to think that veterans have a lot more to offer the Lb
community than raspberries blown into the faces of those who are
just learning the ropes. There are a lot of people who are sitting
on a wealth of information and insight. They could be role models
to the rest of them if they choose to be.

Thanks, Funhog, for sharing your insight.

Melinda
Here here!

I would certainly like to think so. I would like to think that after almost 3
years and over 400 boxes I would fall under the veteran/elder category, and I
do not mind that people ask questions that we've all heard many times before.
Granted, my learning style is to sit back and soak it all in and not ask
questions unless I cannot seek out the answer on my own, but I do understand that
others have different learning styles. For some, they feel the quickest way to
an answer is to ask.

I've been sitting back for most of this line of discussion, but I have to say
that I don't think that anything is wrong with asking questions - new or old
- repeated or not. Just don't read them if you don't want to be bothered by
them...that's what I've been doing. (Heck, most of the things on the list have
not been worth reading lately) But then again, for those who ask, there will
be the few of us who will give the same gracious and patient answer or
redirection to the FAQ no matter how often they come up. That is what makes a mentor.
That is also the welcoming attitude that first attracted me to this list.

It is very true that the talk list is NOT the hobby (although, I think that
for some it has become a secondary hobby/obsession), but it does make me sad to
see the talk group continue to splinter and splinter...first into regional
lists and now into newcomer/veteran lists Everyone has been complaining that
"newbies" aren't taking the time to explore the site and find out the things they
need to know... but how can anyone seriously think that fracturing into a
whole bunch of sites or sub-sites will make it any easier for them to find
ANYTHING?

Looking forward with hope...
-Kim (Rustypuff)


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Never forget: Every letterbox has an intended audience.

It seems to me that a lot of people who feel 'excluded' tend to be
new letterboxers that haven't realized this yet. They come in
assuming that all clues are readily accessible on LbNA and are
horrified to learn when they aren't. And they haven't figured out
the ropes on how to acquire them either. They haven't learned
the "who's who" in letterboxing or developed letterboxing
acquaintences to share information with.

I see words like 'elitism' being thrown around, and it just makes me
cringe. My boxes tend to be more difficult than average to get, but
I do that so they'll be more special for those who go through the
effort to actually nab them. That, and the fewer people who find my
boxes, the less maintenance is required of them. So I just make
cracking the clue or the hike to the box more difficult than
average. Makes it harder for my 'enemies' to sabatoge my boxes as
well. ;o)

I'm not big on creating 'word-of-mouth' clues--I don't really like
searching for the CLUE, I like searching for the boxes! So you know
what I do? I don't look for the clue! It's no sweat off my back.
Sometimes they happen to pass through my inbox unexpectedly and I'll
hang onto the them, but I don't go searching through archives or
googling the web to find clues. It's just not the kind of thing I'm
interested in.

I also don't like drive-by boxes. I like a challenge in acquiring a
letterbox, and parking a stone's throw from the letterbox holds
absolutely no appeal to me at all. I've been known to drive right
on past known boxes less than a hundred feet away just because I
thought they were too easy and dull so held no interest to me.

That's not an attack against such boxes--it's just not my kind of
box. Based on the number of people logging into to them, however,
it seems that most people DO like such boxes. In this group, you
can't go wrong hiding a drive-by!

There's a lot of letterboxes out there, and many people who are
hiding them want to do something unique. Something to make them
stand out from the rest. And sometimes, making the clue difficult
to acquire is one way of doing that. Heaven knows we've learned
more about Lemony Snicket than we'd need to know in a lifetime
because the clues aren't listed on LbNA. Maybe he deliberately
wanted to make the clues hard-to-get in keeping with character.
Maybe he doesn't want new letterboxers looking for it--afraid they
won't rehide it well enough. (Based on what I've heard, they're
remarkable boxes and it's understandable he might be extra cautious
with them.) Or maybe he's an illegal immigrant and doesn't want to
draw attention to himself or his boxes.

I've had new letterboxers ask me questions about some of my
questions, and I've flat out told them I wouldn't recommend they
look for the box. Not that I didn't want them to look, but rather I
didn't think they'd be able to find the box, and I didn't want them
to be disappointed if they went home empty-handed. Some letterboxes
are notoriously difficult to find where even experienced boxers have
trouble finding them. A new letterboxer probably wouldn't have a
chance! (For those in the know, the first box I tried to find was
the Multnomah Falls box--and I failed miserably. It's a tough box
for anyone to find, but as a newbie, I really didn't have a chance!)

There's nothing elitist or snobbish about any of these activities.
Not all boxes are created equal, and not all boxes are designed with
YOU in mind. There's as many kinds of boxes are there are people
hiding them. If you don't enjoy looking for obscure clues posted
months ago in the talk list, don't. It's not a big deal. If you
don't like solving mind-numbing cryptic puzzles like my Walking Tour
Series, skip it. If you don't want to hike 15 miles for a
letterbox, don't. It's not meant for you.

There are a lot of letterboxes out there designed for new
letterboxers, and there are a lot out there designed for more
experienced letterboxers. It takes all types. Every letterbox has
an intended audience, and if you're not part of it, let it go. Find
one that is.

I've been saying this for a long time, but I should also point out:
Every POST on this board has an intended audience as well. The
system for using state abbreviations in the subject title was
designed to help get your message to its intended audience. The
regional talk lists have been created for the same reason.
Sometimes, when people can't find a certain person's e-mail address,
they'll post a message with a subject saying: "For Lemony Snicket"
or whatever the case may be--so at a quick glance you can see if
you're part of the intended audience. (A *very* narrow one, in this
case.) In fact, that's the primary purpose of the subject on these
posts: So people can figure out if a given post is something that
they would be interested in. If you can't tell what a post is about
or who it is meant for, it's a bad subject. Which, I might add,
includes this post--what the hell does "And then there were none..."
supposed to mean? Am I supposed to read that? Does it have
anything to do with me? However, I choose to leave the subject as
is in my reply because anyone reading this thread--who IS my
intended audience--will know it's a continuation of this thread and
read this post. And those who aren't following the thread will skip
it--as well it should be.

Newbies vs. oldies: It's a stupid argument. This is not a 'no
rules' hobby, contrary to popular belief. If there's conflicts
between newbies and oldies, it's because newbies haven't learned the
ropes yet. And reality doesn't mesh with their expectations.
Oldies (for the most part) try to help explain how things are done
and why. Sometimes it's just tradition, and sometimes there's a
good reason for it. We've all been in that awkward 'newbie' stage,
and most of us eventually grow out of it into a 'mature, older-and-
wiser oldie'.

However, we actually have two kinds of newbies that frequent this
board: New letterboxers, and new computer users. I like to help new
letterboxers, show them the ropes, and be supportive. New computer
users--I admit, they get under my skin sometimes and I do or say
things I later regret. While they're very happy to take help about
letterboxing, they tend to be very upset if you try to explain the
ways of the World Wide Web. But if you're going to use this medium
for communication, you have to learn how to use it properly. You
have to learn simple things like to read the FAQs before posting a
question that the FAQ already answers. You have to learn how to use
Google to find other websites that might relate to what you're
doing. You have to learn how to quote PARTS of a post that you're
replying too. You have to learn not to cross-post between several
talk lists. It's just good, common-sense Internet etiquette.

And while I applaud a new letterboxer's enthusiasm to learn all
there is to know about letterboxing, sometimes I wish they had that
same enthusiasm to learn proper Internet etiquette.

-- Ryan

I am curious as to what makes you think that because we do not care
to see the same questions over and over again on the talk list, we do
not want to share our experience and help new letterboxers?

Most of the "elders" (for lack of a better description) you accuse of
throwing raspberries routinely answer e-mail from new letterboxers,
both from the list and those who just happened upon their clues
and/or boxes. Most of them actually take the time to answer e-mail
from new letterboxers who have written to report a box or hitch hiker
find (check your old e-mail, I daresay you have a few from me in
response to your finding my boxes).

If you go back in the archives of this list, you will find that most
of them routinely give tips, information and advice to questions that
are not the run-of-the-mill question for which the answer can easily
be found in the FAQ. Furthermore, most of these individuals have
hosted and/or provided workshop instruction at gatherings across the
country.

Of course it is your choice to label us as cranky old elders and
assume that we hate newbies. But inactuality nothing could be
further from the truth.

SpringChick

--- In letterbox-usa@yahoogroups.com, "moonsunmagik"
wrote:
> I agree, very well put, Funhog. And I agree with you.... to an
> extent. The element of mystery is another part of the game.
> Difficult clues and mystery boxes are very rewarding puzzles when
> unravelled. Some clues read like entrance exams into a secret
> world, and that's awesome. It seems like we may share the view
that
> varying levels of difficulty in clues adds a nice spice to the game.
>
> Now, I can't pretend to know what it is about Dartmoor that makes
> its letterboxing more "cloak and dagger" than ours. I've never
been
> to Dartmoor. Maybe there's something unique in its culture that
> fostered this more exclusionary approach to letterboxing, I don't
> know.
>
> I don't think anyone can disagree with me when I say US boxing is
> very different from Dartmoor boxing. They have an arduous process
> by which clues are acquired: 100 boxes found before clues are
> accessed. (I've never quite understood how those first 100 are
> found without the clues, but I digress.) We have clues posted on
> the world wide web for anyone with a modem to access. Their sport
> is practically historic, we have internet talk lists and
> gatherings. When you think about it, it's not really fair to
either
> to hold one up to the traditions or advances of the other. They
are
> unique unto themselves.
>
> What is it about US boxing that makes it the way it is? I'm going
> to sidestep the flag waving to answer that question. Fact is, I'm
> not sure why our boxing is the way it is anymore than I can explain
> the character of Dartmoor boxes. I do know one thing: the game is
> what you make it. Easy clues, hard clues, whatever. It's a
> wonderful thing as long as we don't get too caught up in ego and
> status.
>
> I'd like to think that veterans have a lot more to offer the Lb
> community than raspberries blown into the faces of those who are
> just learning the ropes. There are a lot of people who are sitting
> on a wealth of information and insight. They could be role models
> to the rest of them if they choose to be.
>
> Thanks, Funhog, for sharing your insight.
>
> Melinda
> --- In letterbox-usa@yahoogroups.com, "funhog1" wrote:
> >
> > > Very well put! It seems the urge to "posess" the game (by
> > > exclusionary tactics like the nomination process for "veterans"
> > > lists, secret handshakes, etc.) is a step towards killing the
> game
> > > altogether.
> >
> > Actually, I think this would make the game all the more fun. The
> element of mystery
> > would be there. There will always be the boxes for all to find
and
> then there would be
> > the hidden clues for those who delve deep.
> >
> > >The act of placing a letterbox for others to find is in
> > > essence an act of sharing. Whether it means the sharing of a
> great
> > > stamp, or an intriguing quest, or a picturesque local, a box
> placed
> > > is an act of goodwill towards others.
> >
> > It is defintely a wonderful an act of sharing. However there is a
> school of thinking in this
> > group that a letterbox in the wild is no longer the property of
> the creator. This attitude is
> > the thing that has put a monkey wrench into the works. Some
> letterboxers feel that the
> > act of sharing is just that and not one of absolute surrender.
> >
> > >Hoarding information, clues,
> > > or insight gained by hard-earned experience goes against the
> very
> > > nature of letterboxing, the way I see it.
> >
> > Actually, the way it's been done historically in Dartmoor is MUCH
> more exclusionary. You
> > can't even get the clue book until you've found a hundred boxes!
> Finding those is the
> > membership card to the club and can take considerable stealth.
> This cloak and dagger
> > aspect of boxing is one of the things that attracted me to the
> hobby in the first place.
> >
> > The sneakier the better, as far as I'm concerned. Keeps that old
> gray matter cookin'
> > Funhog

It was Harry.
Psychomom


--- In letterbox-usa@yahoogroups.com, "Brian, Ryan & Lori"
wrote:
> simply because noone took a second to answer them politely?
>
>
> Is that Tom or Dick?
>
> Brian
> TeamGreenDragon
>
> ( I know, old joke)

Harrumph! I'll have you know I've never answered anything politely!

--- In letterbox-usa@yahoogroups.com, "psycomommy2003"
wrote:
> It was Harry.
> Psychomom
>
>
> --- In letterbox-usa@yahoogroups.com, "Brian, Ryan & Lori"
> wrote:
> > simply because noone took a second to answer them politely?
> >
> >
> > Is that Tom or Dick?

Good to see you post. That was so polite of you.
Gotcha!
Psychomom

--- In letterbox-usa@yahoogroups.com, "harry_noone"
wrote:
> Harrumph! I'll have you know I've never answered anything politely!
>
> --- In letterbox-usa@yahoogroups.com, "psycomommy2003"
> wrote:
> > It was Harry.
> > Psychomom
> >
> >
> > --- In letterbox-usa@yahoogroups.com, "Brian, Ryan & Lori"
> > wrote:
> > > simply because noone took a second to answer them politely?
> > >
> > >
> > > Is that Tom or Dick?

Bring on more newbies!
Newbies = New boxes

Heck it's Tuesday! Does that mean we elders get first dibs on
secret clues?
Cranky old elder, Psychomom


--- In letterbox-usa@yahoogroups.com, "SpringChick"
wrote:
> Of course it is your choice to label us as cranky old elders and
> assume that we hate newbies. But inactuality nothing could be
> further from the truth.
>
> SpringChick